The topic of psychedelic medicines has become part of the global conversation, also because of the mental health challenges we are facing as a result of the COVID-19 pandemic. The paradigm of mental health is shifting. Famous universities are engaged in cutting edge research, hundreds of millions of dollars are raised to invest into psychedelic medicines and the global psychedelics market is projected to reach $8 Billion by 2029.
We are currently witnessing the psychedelic renaissance. However, proponents of psychedelic treatments can still encounter scepticism, which is, amongst other, an after effect of the so called “War on Drugs” launched in the Nixon era, the misinformed policies of which are today considered a failure by many. The antidote is easily approachable information.
Today’s guest Anne Philippi is the founder of The New Health Club, the platform launched in 2019 with a podcast and newsletter, creating a space where CEOs, founders, investors, scientists and therapists from the new psychedelic ecosystem and business could talk about the disruptive power of psychedelics and new markets, compounds and psychedelic medicine.
The New Health Club is currently evolving into a venture to provide access to legal, safe and vetted psychedelic treatments and experiences. Anne is on a mission to inform and change the narrative of psychedelic medicines and to spread awareness of the power and promise of psychedelics for healing the mind and body.
In this discussion with Anne Philippi, you’ll discover:
-Anne’s personal journey into the realm of psychedelics…03:30
-The transformative catalyst in Anne’s life…10:30
-Vastly differing views on psychedelics due to differing societal norms around the globe…23:43
-Means of justly compensating the forebears of psychedelic practices (indigenous communities)…31:51
-How psychedelics assist in reconciling traumas from our past…43:40
-Psychedelics a modality in improving work environments…48:10
-Unique approaches of The New Health Club in removing the stigma of psychedelics…56:00
-There is no “one size fits all” approach to psychedelics…1:06:56
-And much more!
Connect with our guest!
Gateway Sciences leading the human race to inner space. Welcome to the Gateway Sessions Podcast, where we discuss the science of psychedelics mental health, optimal human wellness, longevity, cutting edge nutrition, and more science space tools for improving your life. I'm Ariana Summer and I'm the global innovation and research leader for Gateway sciences. The topic of psychedelic medicines has become part of the global conversation, also because of the mental health challenges we are facing as a result of the Covid 19. The paradigm of mental health is shifting. Famous universities are engaged in cutting edge research. Hundreds of millions of dollars are raised to invest into psychedelic medicines, and the global psychedelics market is projected to reach 8 billion US dollars by 2029. We are currently witnessing the psychedelic renaissance. However, proponents of psychedelic treatments can still encounter skepticism, which is amongst other and after effect of the so-called war on drugs launched in the Nixon era. The misinformed policies of which are today considered a failure by many. The antidote is easily approachable information. And today's guest, Anna Philippe, is the founder of the New Health Club. The platform launched in 2019 with a podcast and newsletter creating a space where CEOs, founders, investors, scientists, and therapists from the new psychedelic ecosystem and business could talk about the disruptive power of psychedelics and new markets, compounds, and psychedelic medicine. The new health club is currently evolving into a venture to provide access to legal, safe and vetted psychedelic treatments and experie. Anna is on a mission to inform and change the narrative of psychedelic medicines and to spread awareness of the power and promise of psychedelics for healing the mind and body. None of the content in this podcast constitutes medical advice or should be construed as a recommendation to use psychedelics. There are psychological, physical, and sometimes legal risks with such usage. Please consult your doctor before considering anything we discuss in this episode. Anna, thank you for joining us today on Gateway Sessions. It's really wonderful to reconnect with you. Yes, it's a really interesting surprise, right? Since we know each other for 10, 15, 15 years, I think we've known each other for 15 years when we both were working in very different fields, living very different lives. We actually talked a little bit about this before we hit record, and in your case, you actually worked as a journalist, a really excellent journalist, if I may say so. But then you, you moved into a completely different direction. I think you also said, Because journalists don't create anything. First, I'd like to know about this, the creation aspect, and then if you would share with our audience what steps on your journey actually led you to where you are today. So yeah, as you said, I was an excellent Hollywood reporter, and I'm, I can not really complain about this time because I worked for gq. I was had two up until up to three movie stars per week that I interviewed, obviously mostly male actors because it was for gq. So the week started with George Clo and ended with Tom Cruise, for example. Once It was a very interesting, I would say, fantasy because obviously it was always a fantasy when you talk to these people and you thought you had a really great connection, but this is what makes a really good Hollywood style that he can actually make you believe that you guys have a really intense conversation and then you leave the room and it was just a fantasy. But that fantasy was very important and very interesting for a while for me. And yeah, and also I enjoyed writing these stories, these interviews, but like you say, at one point I felt like it was just, Like just delivering this fantasy to other people without you basically interfering in CRE in the creation process of this. And I think then I started, even when I was still in LA, I started to write a novel, funny enough about my time in Berlin that I wrote in la. So it's probably, I think it's always good maybe to go to a different place to write about your life in another city or another place. I really started to get into, yeah, let's say the creation of a world that was not Hollywood fantasy world. And, but at the same time I realized I had this build, this structure. I went to Kini yoga in the morning with Russell Brand and then I came back home and wrote for two hours, like really fast track. Under novel, and it was the first encounter with breath work you could say, because kini breath work is very intense. It's actually a pre psychedelic experience, which I did not know at the time that I was already on the way to psychedelics just with my breath. And so then once I was writing the book, I realized, wow, there's a really big. That is just coming out without me actually realizing what I was actually writing about. And I realized, whoa, I'm just writing a book about my codependent relationship with a fancy drug addict. Mm-hmm. And once I had finished, it actually coincident with me going back to Berlin or because media was not the way it used to be anymore. And I really had to think about if I still wanted to stay in that business. And so I got back and the book came out and the response from a lot of people was that it was a really hardcore, strong story for them that they would not expect me to have lived through actually. And, and then I realized, oh yeah, they're actually, actually right. And if I read it today, it's almost like impossible for me to read this. Because a lot of things were actually not fantasy. They were actually my real life back then. And I think a couple of years after the novel, I realized, I had done so much therapy, talk therapy, even in la. I had done yoga almost every day. Meditation, like everything that you thought was available, address something. But I still did not know what it actually was. I just knew I got more and more into therapy and more and more I had this conversations with therapists that resembled each other. I just exchanged the therapist and yeah, and then when I came back that year to Berlin, I felt like, really? Oh my God. Coming back from America. It was really weird and. I felt like a total alien and I just, I think I, that's roughly half a year later I found, or somebody gave me Michael Poll's book, how to Change Her Mind, I think, which came out in 2018. And as a good journalist, I researched where I could do LSD trips very fast. Mm-hmm. because I thought it, it's so interesting cuz it was just almost like a coincidence because that's the first thing he describes in a book. And I was like, oh yeah, that, okay, so this sounds like he's a reasonable writer, he's established. So if he, the way he described it, I thought was very appealing to me. And also it wasn't, it didn't sound like a crazy idea to do it, but what it sounded like that he had a lot of insights that he did not have before. And then I actually found somebody in Germany. Psychiatrist who would do this with me, which is, of course we have to say it, it's still illegal to do this, but since he was a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst, I realized he has a lot of experience. And so then I think in, yeah, in May, 2019, I went on this first ever psychedelic trip in my life. I've never done anything before. Afterwards, it was really not really like this, oh, my life is changing overnight and this silver bullet thing, and then everything is clear. But we talked about this before we recorded also, I had, I came back from America asking myself why I, I actually never got married and never had children, and I just really could not answer that question. And in a. In the first LSD trip in my life, like I had, I was pregnant with twins and I was married, so after five minutes and I was like, oh, it seems to mean something to you. But it's so interesting that before in every therapy session I ever was, it never came up as a topic. And nobody ever asked me, so could have asked me, why did you never have children? Or Why, what? So why did you never got married? But I never had this conversation with any therapist. And I think after this trip I started to really get interested in psychedelics. I started to write a little bit about it for Frank Futa Minor back then still. And then I think in 2020, shortly before Covid really started, I went to Synthesis in Amsterdam and did my first psilocybin trip in a legal retreat in an Amsterdam. And afterwards I felt like I was really a hundred percent sure that this would be the way, the topic, the career, however you wanna call it. I really wanted to engage into, and then I founded the podcast and then things happened very fast because lockdown happened. Everybody suddenly was available. You could talk to everybody. You didn't have to travel 2 million places. And also I found, I, I got to know Christian A who supported the podcast very early on. And then the real transformation really started, I would say one year after my first trip. And it also started because I really was able, I saw the first time that I really had a very, yeah, impactful childhood trauma that I've never, ever looked at until this day when I started. And when you say that the real transformation started a year into this, can you describe what actually happened or how that manifested in your life? You mean the transformation? Yeah. After the LSD thing, of course I was, there wasn't a lot of integration after this. There was a couple of talks, a couple of sessions afterwards. But of course I read about integration. But of course I started to really think about, as an example, this topic would not having children, and I mean, talked about these journalist times before and I realized that, for example, back then, I always. Said, oh, I have to, I seem to be a much cooler person if I don't have family and children. Because as a journalist and a reporter, it's much better to be independent and always available and do crazy things and go to crazy places. And the first step was realizing that this was just like a tool basically to prevent myself from really looking into what I actually was really missing in my life. So the first step was basically suddenly realizing what actually, yeah, what almost like instruments or strategies to distract myself from myself. And of course you could say I could have one, could have seen this already while you were doing that job, but I wasn't. So I was very much, or every time something like that came up, I tried to not let look into it or just push it away. Or other strategies like, I don't know, just also social media, for example. Present yourself as the cool person on social media that you thought you wanted to be. So the first step was basically realizing, putting apart what is actually really the person I am. And what has been a narrative that you created for yourself for whatever reason in the last, the person 20 years persona. Yeah. The person and the persona. And it's so easy. Exactly. It's so easy to fall into the what is crap of the persona. And talking about specifically what was part of your persona. And I can relate to that. I spent time in Berlin, we've moved in very similar circles where if you are not married and don't have children, it can very easily be labeled as cool. It also is cool if that's the choice you make out of your full being. Absolutely. And there's these two polarities. There's the one where it's, oh, this is amazing and cool and independent. Then there's the other words, oh, why aren't you and why don't you have children? So to find your. Most inner truth between these two polarities and then just follow your own. Inner compass is huge and is life shifting. But to find that inner truth, we first need to unearth what that truth is. Yeah. Because sometimes it's just there's, you can't even get through to it because there might maybe, as you mentioned, and thank you for sharing that there might be maybe childhood trauma and we like to distract ourselves from that pain, from that first trauma by doing things that on the outside may look like, wow, this is a super successful life. Look at, and I remember also thinking we, we knew each other and I was following your career. I always admired you as a writer and a journalist and also how you lived your life. And yes, from the outside and social media very much, I would be like, wow, this is amazing. Look at what she's doing. And. It was amazing. Absolutely. And you created it all yourself yet. You knew that something was missing. And so the psychedelic experiences actually help you to reconnect to this deep inner truth. And I find it amazing that from not only is there a self-awareness, a self integrion, if you wanna go with CG Young of the shadow parts and embracing them, so the self healing aside, there's also a healing that extends from the person that is healed or in the process of healing to the world like you are doing Now. You mentioned your podcast, which by the way, I can, I highly recommend it. And it's not only the podcast, it's your. Endeavor, your company, the new health club, it's truly unique. And can you give us the bird's eye view, what the new health club is actually about, I guess like you said, and thank you that you for promoting it and liking it. I love it. So it was actually a really interesting moment in time, I guess because, because like we said earlier, like everybody was suddenly at home. And when I say everybody, it's like all the people in the last two or three years who created this industry, like the founders, investors, therapists, who else just of course suddenly were available faster and more in a more, in an easier way to reach. And Dr. Bros came also on as the sponsor in the first year. So then they got me as a guest Pulse DZ right away and Bri Dublin. So suddenly, In two years, we had every person on a podcast who really was either like, doing this for 30 years, like Rick Dublin and or just let's say the, the main characters in, in this whole new thing, or pot dammit, or Gabe and, I dunno, Robin Ka Harris Christian. Of course Ang May like, so, so suddenly I had two years of a weekly show almost without even realizing what we were actually doing the whole time. But we were just putting it out there because it became so interesting and it was suddenly the access to get people was actually very easy. Once you know it is you have one person and oh, that person was on the show, then that person's gonna come on. And Michael Paul was one of the first people. And then something very interesting happened that because people started. I think appreciate that. We talked about, and also I talked about very openly in the podcast why I've done this. A lot of scientists talked about why, what actually could come out of these therapies. And then a lot of people approached us saying, I heard you guys talking about keman therapy or psilocybin. I really wanna try this because I don't feel I make any progress. Or my wife is on antidepressants for a hundred years and I really don't like to look into this for her. And to make sure suddenly we had this sales funnel for psychedelic therapies because we beginning was like just very, very few people just referring to clinics or to collaborators who work with where we knew they were very legit. And then at one point, I think it was last year, We started to collaborate closer with a few trip in Amsterdam and the sand, pretty much like future trip psilocybin, I should say, or like truffles because this few trip in America's only engaged in Ketamine, but back then they also opened up something in Amsterdam and that became like a first, let's say, stronger relationship to one clinic or provider. And we have done, we actually, we found a couple of people that we actually collaborated with in the same way, and. And now of course, at one point you want to have your own place where you're gonna do this, which we're gonna develop next year. But I think the interesting thing like Edward's Eye is that it became a sales funnel and also is becoming a sales funnel for psychedelic therapies. On the non-medical side, I have to say more like on the, I don't wanna say recreational side because that's not really what it is, but I feel like there's always something in between a strictly medical model and a recreational model, which there isn't a name for it yet, but I feel it's somewhere in the middle often, or that exists too. That market exists too. That's not straight. Either people are just looking for a fun retreat or a suffering from severe depression and, and I think now it becomes like the whole company becomes this funnel, but it also becomes a tool to, I wanna say reintroduce psychedelics to society. Because we had two workshops in, in Miami at a Wonderland about, mainly about the topic. For example, how it is if people experience a trip with a mother, with a facilitator who talk speaks in their mother tongue. And we had a guest from in a workshop you re blocking who is actually in Canada, very successful tech entrepreneur with the app called Homecoming. And he's looking into building the Ukrainian psychedelic society. And now we collaborate on something, how to bring. Ukrainian people to a retreat where they actually have the experience in their mother tongue with the facilitator that speaks Ukrainian. That's same thing. Fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. Same thing with Iranian women, but since we all know what's just happening right now, it's interesting because I really realized this also in my own experience that, I mean, I always had, the LSD thing was in German, but everything else was always in English. Like going to a retreat in Netherland is everybody's English or speaks English and a lot of Americans, so you trip in English you could say. But then at one point there was this great facilitator woman from Germany. Um, and she lived in Netherlands. She spoke Dutch and I was like, oh no, she's actually German. So then we started to talk German and, and then in this trip I had where she facilitated my experience, I had a really strong, let's say, you could say like German content coming up. And you could also say, I saw a lot of Nazi things that I've never seen before because it's Sunday. There was the German language and yeah, so that's something. This makes so much sense, Anna, because first of all, the mother tongue, this is. This is how we learn to express our needs, and then also how to vocalize our emotions in a very early stage and important stage of our life. So it makes complete sense to connect such a healing journey with the mother tongue. And what you just mentioned about imagery of the Nazis coming up, which you haven't had before. Also, it's completely fascinating because we have, of course, we have nurture the things that are brought to us and that kind of mint us in our sense and our psyche. There's imprints on our psyche in this life, but then there's also nature in the vein of epigenetics and both. Mm-hmm. you and I are German born. My father was actually born in 1935, so he was a little boy throughout the war. Oh, then the hunger years. And there is a lot of trauma that I think is still present in the German psyche and also in the way certain things are dealt with in day to day life. And that Germans may not even be aware of, like in. Own experience. For example, I've had lifelong anxiety that via ketamine therapy actually in my, my baseline of anxiety has been vastly, dramatically, positively lowered. But this perpetual feeling that something terrible is going to happen, always expecting the worst. And also in a sense, not being able to let go of things like I tended to hoard because you may need it at some point, you, the t-shirt with 10 holes in it may need some point. So this is, but this can come, you know what, this could actually, it's so interesting to say that because I'm convinced is is related to second world war. Let's keep everything, don't throw away everything because, and this had nothing to do with sustainability at that point. No. It's just really like, also like for example, even with eating when I had dinner or lunch with my grandparents, You had to eat the whole thing because don't know what's gonna come like tomorrow. Maybe there's another bump attack and then you have nothing to eat. Yes, absolutely. I also, for, I was always blessed with a really good metabolism. However, I often, for, as a child, as an adult, I would eat way more. Then I actually need it calorically or way post the hunger and even satiation. Yeah. Feeling. And I, I have a, I feel that is definitely tied to this part of epigenetics that I just mentioned. And what I also find remarkable in Germany, what I just alluded to, is that you can still sense this trauma and whether, for example, also in a sense of guilt, I personally do not believe in collective guilt, especially not for generations after. If you look at somebody who's 20 years old right now, however, I do believe in collective responsibility and making sure that certain things, terrible things never happen again. And I think a big part, being collectively responsible is also dealing with. Trauma and acknowledging it. And I think that, for example, if I look at my father's generation, there was just so much that happened and an entire generation experienced trauma that they didn't even talk about it. You swept it under the rug. You just kept going on with your life. So I'm really curious from your perspective, you're in Berlin right now. You spend a lot of time in the US and the work that you do use different countries, different geographical and historical psyches, so to say, dealing with this emerging market that's renaissance of psychedelics. How do you think Germany is compared, let's say, to the US with regards to opening up to psychedelics? Where is the public opinion currently and where are the policy makers current? Let's start with the policy makers said this before, like there was this really interesting moment, was it a couple of weeks ago, where we learned that cannabis is going to be legalized in a certain gram kilogram of I think 30 gram of possession as far as I remember. I think it's 30 that you can possess and it would be not like, would be decriminalized then by then or like even legalized. And I think this will have a huge impact in Germany. Because it was always like, I feel like the last years, even like the, the minister of, I don't know how you would call say this in English, but the talking about of tractor, how would you say this? The, the, from the government, the person who's in charge of the whole drug war on drugs in the country, like the legal, the decriminalizing questions. So they would, I always, yeah, one point it's gonna happen, but you felt like never this, never, something's never, it's not really gonna happen. It was always like some blah blah, blah, and then nothing would happen. And so that's an interesting moment right now. Or you can see, okay, this is progressing. And then in terms of psychedelics, there's this one politician from the ftp, from the liberal party who even before FTP came into office, was actually trying in the party to encourage more psychedelic research coming more from a business point of view. Like he realized, okay, there will be many companies, this will be, you could say this will be a new pharma industry, which it will be also. And he was encouraging more research and, and then FTP came into office and he also became more important in the government. And so he, he actually now is in charge of the Minister Ministerium that is actually also responsible for giving money to clinical trials in Germany for psychedelics and to charity. For example, Berlin. Four trials running right now. The A really written hospital research. Yeah. And very always, I mean, there's this show on Netflix about which is very interesting because it was always like a, I mean like a hospital sounds so small like a empire almost. It was very important for progress in terms of medical innovations you could say. And now they have I think four trials, like for MDMA psilocybin, they did something for compass pathways. Then of course, two psilocybin trials they're doing, and then I think even DMTs like the next thing. So there are things moving and on let's say, on, on, on the surface, but also. And this is what we feel very strongly, you could say, from a customer base that is really interested in microdosing, for example. And we get so many requests and messages, yeah, I wanna do this. I heard about this. Where can I go? What can I do? So I'd say, like you say, like a younger generation that's now in their thirties, roughly. Forties, they still have pretty much the old narrative with the war on drugs, and you get an addict when you do this and LSD makes you an addict. And all these kind of false informations basically. But the, let's say, I would say roughly millennial generation has a completely different idea around. So it really starts to look into it as a tool for experiences, spirituality. But also I would say the, the main thing, and that is of course very hard in Germany, I would say even hard in Europe, is to understand that we can now, let's say, cure addiction with drugs. So that's what, if you tell this to somebody, it's like, what do you mean? This makes no sense. So this whole idea that actually Dr. Why did we call these substances drugs? How did this even happen with the war on drugs that Richard Nixon initiated in 71? And just to, just this thing that like a lot of these substances, like mushrooms and cannabis, even AASA is like often ingrained in a thousand year old tradition of indigenous peoples, which is now coming to the surface. I think most people never heard of this, and I'm honest, I have never heard of this until two years ago. There was nothing I ever read about that came even close to explaining to me that the Greek culture that where our European democracy is based on was basically entertaining. Kind of a barkin of Of Athens. Yeah. Called Iuss. Yeah. And so all of this knowledge is rising to the top and I think we can agree that there's an A worldwide. De colonialization that is just happening. And a lot of people don't like that. They just look at the football thing that's happening now in, in Doha. Like it's a really big topic and people are not like, oh, it doesn't matter. I'm just going there. It's football. It's a really big conflict. Yes. Around this thing. All these, yeah. And all these conflicts that are there were always conflicts. They're rising to the top. And I feel psychedelics have a lot to do with that, that people are really starting to, not that people do psychedelics who see these things, but there's a new openness and a new kind of almost like wave wherever it comes from. And then Covid certainly contributed to this, I think, where people really, or next generations start to look into things that they're not okay with anymore. And the moment psychedelics come into the game, I think your awareness to look into these things is even becoming bigger. So, There is a connection I think, between this colonial climate and psychedelics basically. Yes. Yeah. Thank you for your perspective on, and I think it, I also believe this is related and psychedelics are not for everyone, and they're not necessarily a panacea. However, I do believe that what we're seeing when there is a, a crucial number of individuals who, whether it's let's say via certain breath work practices that literally free their mind, or whether it's people partaking in where these therapies are legal, let's say like ketamine in the US or you go to Mexico or it's legal and you do iasa or iboga or such, and this crucial number of human beings who have been exposed and are exposing themselves to literally mind opening and healing substances. That shift in perspective, you cannot change. And it also permeates, it will ripple out to everybody and come in touch with, and that's why we are also seeing, for example, what you just mentioned, that people around the globe all of a sudden, not all of a sudden this was in a sense, this Yeah, yeah. Long when coming, but it seems like all of a sudden, no, they're not okay anymore. With people's freedom of expression and freedom of mind and freedom to live in a way they choose is suppressed. In certain parts of the world and or even if it's within our own cultures, we still have a lot of work to do ourselves in a lot of different realms. But the awareness that it's not okay, the awareness that we have a right to, in a sense, it's biological freedom, it's freedom to explore and heal and know our psyches, our minds. I think it's, it's truly, if you don't wanna call it revolutionary, it's evolutionary and it's quite possibly the next step in human evolution. And you said that a lot of these substances, medicines have been used for hundreds or even thousands of years, and certain indigenous cultures, there is a vast treasure trove of knowledge, which actually brings me to a topic that I think is very important when we're talking about. Medicines. Let's just pick Iasa. Cause it's been at the forefront of many discussions. Media, you hear about it all the time since a few years. So the people who have been cultivating this knowledge for many generations and how to bring this medicine to others, how can we make sure that indigenous people, for example, are fairly integrated and also compensated in this process where these medicines are brought to more people in the world outside of these indigenous communities? Yeah, I think there are already a couple of American companies and funds also who immediately would look into a reciprocity program from, let's say that a company. Is in a space is offering. And in the meantime, in the last three years, like some people became thankfully visible out of these communities. For example, also, Michael Parlin had one episode on his Netflix show about AOD and San Pedro, where he basically spent the whole episode, you could say, with indigenous peoples, and they explained what it actually meant to them at one point, and once it got criminalized, what it also meant to them that it was affecting their mental health and that it was always a tool that they had to work on their mental health. So, The topic is actually, again, it's touching again the idea of the colo, colonial Jesus deco, decolonial, colonialization, I'm not sure. Deco. Yeah. Delo. Colonialization, exactly. So this idea I think, is behind a lot of these new developments in making indigenous peoples visible who actually saved the tradition of these medicines for thousands of years because it was given to them and their ancestor gave it to them. And this whole story also around Maria Sabina, the woman who actually you could say, introduced magic mushrooms again to the Western society. And I think there are even companies who are starting to work indigenous peoples in South America. To co-create almost like our cofound companies with them. And so that, personally I think that is super interesting and I think this might be also rather the future than just. Having them as a beneficiary of some investment or something. Yes. And I know, yeah, I know from, I had the privilege of meeting some leaders of the Cogi tribe in Columbia a while ago, and so I know that, and these specific two men shared that they just have had really bad experiences with people outside of their tribes coming in and wanting whether it's resources of, that are material or resources that, that are wisdom related. And basically just taking it and then running with it and making a lot of profit with it while leaving the tribes behind. And I'm certain that's an experience that's not, does not only relate to. The Cogi and Colombia, but that probably relates to many indigenous tribes around the world. Making sure that doesn't happen. And regaining also the trust of these people who have basically kept these traditions and this knowledge alive for so many generations will be crucial. You mentioned it before, reciprocity. Exactly. And then I think another interesting thing is that, and there's one really great author from the Tide who actually is researching around this. So he's going to South America to do Iasa, but also like to look into tribe cultures for a while, and he actually visits also shamans who are actually educated to look into, let's say the dark side of Shamanism. Mm-hmm. And that's a super interesting to me because I think very easily we have this. Picture of the Western world, oh, we fucked up. So now let's go to these people who we suppressed for a thousand years. And then we just take their stuff and that's gonna be so healing for us. Right? And then we can actually ignore them again, once they healed us. And I find it so interesting that it's almost like a specific way of being arrogant to just actually take or make them responsible for our healing because we are not capable anymore of healing ourselves with our tools. And I think that's a really interesting aspect also, that this culture is not only based on, oh, let's heal the Westerners and that's all we actually year for. So that it's actually a way more elaborate specific and also, yeah, almost like a bipartisan culture. It's not only good and oh, we wanna help everybody, which is. As a strong culture, it always is that it has two sides. It has a more complex and difficult idea around it than just like healing other people. And that is something that I also find very interesting. Oh, absolutely. And there's, I mean, there's really, there's fantastic books out there if you want to learn more about Ethnobotany or Yeah, exactly. Um, shamanism, people who have worked like the Cosmic Ser and authors Jeremy Nabi, and there's also great books on the fiction side. There's a book by Graham Hancock called Entangled, which is a really great read. He actually also dives into this darker aspect of shamanism or working with these medicines. And yeah, definitely an aspect to also keep in mind the world and then also just because I forget it, so I think the latest. Not the latest, but the next generation voice. To me that's very important is somebody like Sutton King, maybe you heard of her. She's this young New York based indigenous woman who is really speaking out for her people and she's on all these conferences. She's part of the American psychedelic community now. And I just really think the way she operates, she's good at social media, she's, she knows how to address these things in the right way. She has her own powerful voice. And I think her model could be something that at one point could also reach like a, I don't know, like a more European-centric problem around a similar thing. And I always wonder if you quickly come back to Germany. And something I never really thought about, but there was this movie recently about the d like the, how do you actually call this? In the, in English again? Yes. When formally Germany was divided, so I can never remember how you call it. It's so real. But the, the, let's say it used to be Germany, right? Yep. And uh, the movie basically said, or was called something like The Land That Doesn't Exist anymore, something like that. And it was about a passion magazine in the seventies or eighties in East Germany that was this little enclave of creative people and just so until politics prosecuted everybody and killed even some people. And then I was like, I thought, oh wow, this is so interesting because there are so many people in Germany who were born in East Germany, but it doesn't exist anymore. And suddenly I was like, wow, this is a whole different. Epigenetic trauma, which is also like the whole, why is it that there's so much white wing movement in East Germany? Why is this still in 10, 15 years? Why always the worst things are happening there, and. There were so many explanations around this, why it would be like a, people would not make enough money and this kind of the reason, like with the Nazis, people were poor and then right wing politics or politicians could actually rise. But I don't really think this is the explanation. I think it's really something that's connected to an epigenetic problem. And this is something that like sometimes I think, wow, there could be a person like Sutton King speaking out, coming from an East German perspective and just saying, okay, look, we don't, our country doesn't, or the country where I was born doesn't exist anymore. So who am I and what I'm supposed to do? Why am I not, I can't go back home, for example. And I think this is something that will probably show in a lot of. Countries that don't exist anymore, either get invaded or kind, exploited like so many countries in the world. And I think this is something that will, on a global basis at one point, will start to show. And yeah. And then that's gonna be interesting how psychedelics will play a part in also multi-generational question actually, for example, yes. I, I spoke recently to a, another podcast guest, ma Hazan, and he, hi, am Marie. Okay. And he actually said that he's been saying for a few years now, that let's say 10 years from now, 10, 15 years from now, that young people will actually demand to have M D M A assisted therapy with their families. To work for sure. Written dynamics and traumas, and I find that thought very interesting. And trauma in a sense is also a disconnection, an uprooting from our whole self that happens at a certain time. And so reconnecting is absolutely crucial. And in order to reconnect the. Needs to get changed and it is changing in a lot of places in the world. Yeah. But I think also it's, it's good to you bring us up because I think, and that's not only happening in Germany, but also in Germany, that on the state level it might be like, oh yeah, we have to look into this. And they're like, clinical trials and let's wait. But there's a whole development of decentralized healthcare that's happening. You could call it like that. And for example, a great company like Journey Clinical. New York has created like a decent, you could say like a decentralized keman clinic that is just connecting therapists and patients all over the US that are not, that don't have a lot of, oh, you would have to live in a big city to really then go to a ke like LA New York. No problem. But what about Ohio? I, Wisconsin, it's a state, it's not a city, sorry, like smaller cities. Right. And I feel like this is something that's very interesting and it's becoming stronger that people would say, even here in, in a country that is not very, doesn't like breaking rules or anything, more people would say than, okay if I don't wanna wait until the state allows me in five years to maybe have an mdm, a assisted therapy. So I either do. Underground, which is sometimes not such a good idea. Or I just go find a solution to go to a country where I can actually do that already. And that is something at the same kind of crypto and currencies, but this development of decentralization, I think it's much stronger already than we think. And I feel also that why in politics it becomes so much harder to centralize things and to have this one leadership model, it doesn't work anymore. And that's, I really wanna say this since we, we talk so much about Germany in this, like one of the things that's also coming up as a topic in terms of German sea level and leadership is that the next generation especially, but also a generation now in their forties and fifties, seem to be very. To, to have a problem with leadership in Germany, also in companies. And I was on this retreat at synthesis with sea level people and founders and NBCs and it was about the topic of leadership and psychedelics. And so we did the first round, the, the smaller dose. And afterwards I had this, and I never made this connection. I realized I also shy away from taking responsibilities or like in a company because my idea of leadership is immediately connected to this word of feel love, like the leader of a country. And I don't have anything to do with it. And a lot of people start to talk about this, that the idea of a German leadership is immediately connected to the Nazi. So there's no other vision for it. And also the word itself, it's unpleasant that you don't even wanna say it. The word fuer, which everybody understands, you don't wanna have anything to do with it. And in this psychedelic experience that a lot of some German people had on this retreat, it was actually something that they realized the first time that the idea of German of leadership in Germany is still so much connected to this old trauma. So there can't be like a new. Model of leadership that's rising to the top almost before the wound, before the trauma is not healed. It's so interesting how deeply ingrained that still is. And it's so important for a country like Germany that has risen over the shadows, that's a functioning and in a sense, a thriving democracy. And currently alight. Also in a sense, in this world, it's really important that if you look at a country like Germany to be a strong, positive leading fur force in the global community as vital, uh, especially if you watch the developments and many other places of the world where actually the polar opposite is happening and we need countries and also individuals to stand up for democracy, for elevating and healing each other. So if we talk about, so the. Company and workplace culture and talking about people taking responsibility, how do you think psychedelics can transform this company and workplace culture? Just, just planning a retreat around this topic actually. And in the research, I had this quote from this German psychologist saying, in Germany, leadership means being hard. And that's it, that's leadership. You're like a hard decision maker, and that's leadership. And I think the most interesting thing will be first of all, that we see. Okay, look, All these, there are absolutely new requirements that are coming towards us for a leader, which is, as we know, people who lead a big company need to have compassion, which we saw in Covid because if you didn't have compassion for your people and for your employees, you could just close everything because they would just be terrified and not being able to, to function anymore because it was such an unpredictable, weird time. So this is the one thing that has to, would have to change. And as we know, psychedelics or psychedelic therapy and experiences are really mo opening most people up to more compassionate understanding for other people, even the ones that they might not have anything to do with before. So that's one thing. And then of course, another thing I personally find very interesting is the new ideas you get. Or you could say like business models that you get in trips that seem to be like super crazy in the first place. When you talk about them in integration, then suddenly they make a lot of sense or they bring you to a solution or to a new perspective of your company. And that is something that will become very interesting I think, in the future, or is already, but it's becoming something. I think that's gonna be important for companies. Let's say start business models that are not your classic German middle class company. But even there, it could be an interesting tool, right? Bring them into the next decade, for example. And then the third thing is that, and I really feel that this is interesting for the country, that the leadership is happening and that the collective trauma can be addressed with these kind of, let's say, even maybe at one point team experiences or something. Because I feel like in German companies that are, let's say also very specifically working in Germany with German products, for German market, as we all know, a lot of these very big. German companies, they all have this history of using workers from concentration camps to bring them into a lot of wells and post-war economies. And you can go on YouTube and there will be tons of documentaries about all of these people. It's not just, oh, this is like a secret thing. It's like out there. And this is something I find very interesting, how this has to be resolved in a way that is unresolved until now. And, and I think my theory is that it's still why the German economy is so anxious and so, or a lot of German companies are so anxious and so iCal because this problem is not resolved and it's still there. And we don't wanna go into names now. I think everybody knows what we're talking about, but it's something that is so crucial to me that it's also not very long ago as we think as, oh, that was like, In the fifties. That's not really long ago. Mm-hmm. And there was a very interesting moment recently about this, around this woman, Rina ba, she's the, I dunno, granddaughter now of the founder. And she's 27, 28. And she was part of, just for the audio we made huge company. They, some of the most well known cookies and all of your, I think you can also get them in the us. So huge. It's like one of the biggest gem companies. And, and she was already at the sea level and collaborating with the CEO and her father had put her in, in, in a very high position very early on. And then recently she said, even in bedside, she said that at one point she had a full on panic. And she realized she needs to take a step back and she needs to leave her position. And first of all, I thought it was very interesting because now you could argue that maybe that has something to do with her epigenetic problem at this point. Or her mental health has caught up with her at some point. And then she stepped back. And the interesting thing is she got a lot of shit for this, that she took a step back and she got criticized. Like she would be a spoiled bread and she would need to relax from her hardcore surfing camp. You could say German media made fun of her because she took that step. And that to me was something that was so, it was still so much in this old thinking, because you should have said, okay, this is actually a very interesting new leadership that somebody says, I'm battling a mental health moment. I had a panic attack. I'm gonna find out what it is. And then I come back in a different way or I find out something that is maybe has to do with my own leadership structure that I have not figured out yet with 27. One also has to say it's a very young age, and that was something that showed me again, that this is not met with, with the openness that should be actually expected now. Yeah. And I think that if we keep talking about Germany, and I think that this goes for a couple of other European countries, there is still this kind of, if you watch the Crown, it's also very interesting to where you see it too. It's like you, you're gonna ignore yourself until suicide basically. And okay, this is nothing new that exists already and even with big bankers and entrepreneurs. But the new interesting question is why does it even has to? Stay in you that long, and why couldn't you just look into these things that made you actually. End up in this position, and this is something that will become very interesting and also where a younger generation will not, like her example, will not just accept it anymore and just risk her, yeah. Her mental health to just stay in the place where she's supposed to stay. I think it takes, yes, and I think it takes an enormous amount of courage to step forward and say, Hey, first of all, I'm not okay. And then I'm going to take a time out to look into this. Why I'm not okay and I'm gonna take care of myself. And especially when you're under public scrutiny, like this young woman, Rina Baan was and is just by the name of the family, the, the hugeness of the company, the economic impact that company has in Germany, and the political affiliations. Kudos to her for having the courage to step forward. Yeah. Acknowledge that. And then acting on her own inner compass. And you're very right. Especially I feel having my roots in Germany. I feel, especially in Germany, we are raised, our generation at least, still feels that I'm 45 now. We're raised to function. And even if that means functioning in a dysfunctional system, And I also find it highly interesting what you have so aptly observed is this new perspective on leadership and where the old paradigm just doesn't work anymore. Where it's this one lone, let's say lone man, lone person at the top pyramid. But if you're at the bottom, you're basically, okay, you have to deal with what you've dealt. But also at the top it's very lonely there. And I think we're really living in a day and age where it's about awakening and supporting and helping grow the leaders in each other. And whatever field or function, we individually can do that. And a large part of that is healing, is stepping right into the center of whichever wound we may have individually or on a larger scale. Culturally. And I think what you are doing with the new health club is really. Amazing work on the one side disseminating information and also helping to change the narrative, destigmatizing, psychedelics, what you do in person, what you do in the podcast, interviewing some of the leading voices in this field, what you do with the workshops, and also connecting people with centers or treatments or practitioners. What you said, how the new health club basically developed into this funnel, and now you actually have a new endeavor, which you alluded to briefly before, but, so what is the future for the new health club? You are actually working on retreat, right? Yeah, and I think we have two. Let's say for the next year, two, let's say, very strong visions. One is, and I'm gonna start with the show, that we will do more live podcasts and live shows, which is fortunately now possible again. And because we had just a couple of weeks ago, the first event with rock fielding from the Beckley Foundation in at So house in Berlin. And it was the first time you could have, let's say, a audience, a live audience. And then we just very briefly decided, oh yeah, let's just also record it as a podcast. And it was so interesting to have this. Energy and this whole changed energy because there were people in the room in the conversation asking questions and being really focused on what we were talking about. 2023, we will actually also in LA I'm gonna tell you more about it, we will have a couple of live shows. So that's something that I'm very excited about. And then in terms of the retreats, we just working with a Canadian partner on a new model that we probably will be launching in the next month or so, A simple single pilot project where we actually look into, you could say, curated our customized retreats in a way that we already experienced a little bit in in the workshop in Miami. That one thing, for example, is to put together, A retreat that is hosted by a facilitator and a mother tongue of the participants. And for example, we have a Ukrainian partner, UE blockchain from Homecoming. We are actually talking about how to launch this as a first yeah. Pilot project with Ukrainian speaking facilitators. Same thing with Farsi facilitators for Persian families at the moment, who are really having a hard time with things happening in Iran. So this is gonna be one thing. And, but then also something like, another topic I find very interesting is psychedelic parenting. Also younger parents, I would say, rather than people in their fifties or sixties that are actually started to. Almost like a practice beginning maybe in Covid to actually help themselves with psychedelics as tools to get through this very difficult situation. Everybody was in and out of this came actually for some young parents, something like an, an insight that they had so much more compassion, understanding for their children or their spouses or their family. That was super difficult before. So leading back to what you said, how to, at one point, even a trip with family, it's gonna be very interesting because there will be traumas that your parents affected and their parents and so on. And so we are gonna work on a couple of very specific curated retreats and then hopefully by the mid of the year we will have. A whole, yeah. Our own retreat with a strong partner. And I find very interesting how this can be connected to the show and to the content. Because I feel like also, that's my observation in the last, let's say six months, that even on the already big platforms that Netflix and Apple TV and everything, it's already, you can see how even big Hollywood names suddenly do a whole movie around their mental health and not just, oh, I do yoga and meditate. The best example I think is just Sina Goms movie on Apple, me and My Mind. And I was like, wow. When I saw the title. And the interesting thing is the guy who did the movie is the guy who did in bet with Madonna back then, who was maybe the first. Movie about a very personal, behind the scenes persona or person you, you could say that's the first, a celebrity mental health movie. Like in terms that we see her behind the scenes and what she likes and when she's like, she showed some feelings in that movie, certainly, and that's a very interesting thing to see that even the already established media, this is becoming content wise also something where also, A lot of unexpected teen stars of people are really saying what's going on with them? And then when I was in Miami, the, what's his name, Aaron Carter, died with 34. And it's whoa, what is, what is happening to this generation also who doesn't look into these things in that way, like some other people. Yeah. And I think that's, yeah, sorry. And also you have people, if you look like artist Megan the stallion who, for example, anxiety, where she just puts it all out there and basically talks openly via the vehicle storytelling that is music about herself and how things are affecting her. And I, I think that's quite amazing, especially people to step forward, women like her who work in a certain environment where usually it is not only asked from you, but you also. Probably feel like you have to put out the strong invulnerable front, deep respect to her and other artists who also use their platform. Yeah, yeah. And we just had Patrick Cox on a podcast we might remember as this super famous shoe designer like Oasis, world Spice. Like everybody, everybody saw the whole Cool Britain time. Everybody wore Patrick Cox. And he was really, he was his own company and one of the most successful, like independent from big fashion Bryan's company and best friends with Ed and John and everybody this Hurley's. And at one point he, he really got into a big depression. And I would say, I mean he says that by himself that without finding five me or dmt, you probably would not be alive right now anymore. And, and I feel that's another thing that's interesting to me, how. Let's say also this generation of, you could say Generation X people was such a, if you look at, if you look back at all these products from the time, like Brett Ellis and all of these eighties movies, some of them, sure great. And I like Brett Ellis, but it's also a very hardcore life to live for the next 20, 30 years. That is a realistic existence, basically. Yeah. And so I think no human being can sustain that for forever and but especially this generation did not have any kind of, Tools available besides talk therapy and antidepressant. And it's interesting that maybe you, you remember Elizabeth Wardell who wrote Prozac Nation and her name in a recent month is coming back into the discourse because she was one of the first people when she was very young writing about an antidepressant. It was taking America overnight. And then she, I mean she, unfortunately, she died also like when she was 50, like just one or two years ago because of breast cancer. So her story to me was always something like, whoa, somebody got very early on what actually was happening to her. Although she was also super successful and bestseller and everybody loved her. She looked super cute and attractive and bestseller, but still, She couldn't find the real kind of solution for her. And I think this is something that's really super sad for that generation. Sometimes I feel, and the generations who are coming now are just really, are not accepting anymore this kind of destiny almost. That's That's great. So this one size and this one size fits all. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I had the opportunity to talk to Dr. Ellen Vora. She's calls herself a holistic psychiatrist, and she also very clearly says these, these drugs, Let's talk for example about Prozac. They have their place and they can be very good. However, she has a huge problem with people having to take these drugs in perpetuity for the rest of their lives where they just mask symptoms. But there is not a healing at the root cause that's happening. And she also said, we learn as psychiatrist to prescribe people these drugs. We do learn how to get them off them. And so I think that we have now the great opportunity of, we have a great. Pharmacopia of drugs that are very effective and can be very helpful. And as long as you don't see 'em as, okay, this is a rest of your life type of thing. But to use what we have here with the new medicines and work out therapies that are also very individualized and you use ever would work best for a certain individual, whether it's a compound, whatever the medicine, the drug is, whether it's a very specific therapy, but to move away from this one size, one model fits all, that can just be so detrimental for the individuals and for cultures as a whole. Yeah. But I think that's one thing. And then I feel like everything that G Mate talks about, like this really unpacking of how trauma works and how it is really so visible in your body that you had no idea ever, that it would eventually mean that. Symptom coming out of your trauma that your brain doesn't remember anymore? To me, I have to say this is the most crucial change and like a medicine that's coming out of this, let's say trauma unpacking and trauma thinking. Because until now, I would say, let's say also if you read like unusual newspapers, the health section or everything there, there is no this in Germany, one has to say, and I'm sure America and in the mainstream media is also similar. There's still not really a lot of insight in terms of where certain, so in Germany, like Fox KA kit or typical diseases are coming from. And it's funny, when I watch Hulu here and I see all these all the advertising again with all these medications and it's so crazy to see, especially the advertising for antidepressants. And that's for the German market? Yes. No, also not Germany. It's not allowed to do that on tv. But like on in, in American TV you still have these, these TV spots for dead advertise antidepressants. And then how they tell the story like why somebody has to take it and how now, how they feel now once they take it. And then like in one second, I have to say the side effects very fast that because they have to say it So it's really interesting how this is still the main narrative. And the big kind of for of the next years is really to reintroduce a trauma informed mental health and physical medicine. So yeah, and I think, no, and I think what will be really crucial for governments and policy makers to understand is that, Even if you just look at this from an economic perspective, a population that is doing well mentally and physical and that can, where individuals can actually live their highest potential, in a sense is much more productive for the society overall. Then going on with people who are basically hobbled, dealing with certain ailments, numbing symptoms, and really not functioning at not being able to perform, have peak performance, the emotional suffering and physical suffering aside. And if you look at the money that is spent on these types of often chronic issues, I think as societies, as cultures, we would be thriving so much more, even just economically if we opened up the avenues for true healing. Yeah, and even these numbers, how much it will cost or would cost a country if. There's not really something happening in terms of solving this mental health crisis. And this will be, if somebody's like, wow, I'm not convinced, then you could always say It costs your country and it costs your companies a lot of money and a lot of competition and productivity if you don't really look into this. Right. And besides that, of course, it's a very, it's just I don't, and that's the interesting thing with human beings is just, I think at one point it just, Are not willing to wait any longer. Like we see now with people heavily looking into microdosing and especially in when it was this two rough years in the pandemic with lockdown. This is when everybody, I mean in Berlin a lot of people started to grow their mushrooms, and people were never thought would ever do that. So, and it's really That's really interesting. Interesting. I would've never thought that. Yeah, you would be surprised Not me, other people, but yeah. And it was, and that was a moment where obviously everything was upside down and that's when I felt there was a whole movement towards, okay, so we are not gonna wait until this and this and is happening. I need this now. I need to go for it. I need to create this by myself. No, there's a lot happening not only in this space, there's a lot happening in public perception and also public action. We're seeing a lot of policies are getting changed. We just saw in Colorado and America, So there's a lot of really interesting and good stuff happening and part of the momentum is certainly also the work that you do. You and you and you too. Well, thank you so much appreciated. And I'm really curious to see what is going to develop with the retreats you're planning. And so for people who wanna learn more about you and want to connect with you and do a deeper dive about everything you know, that the new Health Club is offering, where can they find you, Anna? So the website as the new health club.de still than on Instagram, the new Health Club, LinkedIn, or under my name on LinkedIn. I post also a lot of things that we are doing Twitter, let's see what that goes. We're still on it. And then next year, of course, You have to go and take Target. There's no way around it. But our main channels, I have to say it turns out, are LinkedIn and Instagram. And then of course we have a great newsletter on Sub also that you will find on a website. And then of course, still the main thing is the podcast, the new Health Hearts clap on Apple Podcasts and Spotify to adding all the other platforms. But these are our two main platforms. Anna, it's been really fun and such a pleasure to reconnect with you. I'm really grateful you may for us and I can't wait to reconnect in real life. So hopefully, yeah, in March next year. Yes, March and Los Angeles. Fantastic. Much gratitude for today. Much gratitude for everything you do, and this was really a delight. Thank you for coming on Gateway Sessions. Thank you. It was great. It was really great. Great questions. Gateway Sciences. Leading the human race to enter space.